Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 03:48:54 CST To: dbd@martha.utcc.utk.edu Subject: Re: STella You want STella? Here, have some STella. Article: 42702 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.masturbation,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage,alt.sex.motss From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: Sex Questionaire (aimed at women) Followup-To: alt.sex.boring Keywords: *fwooosh* Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 09:32:22 GMT If you don't know what a followup line is, ask your system administrator. This is as much warning as you get. salazar@umiami.ir.miami.edu writes: > Hello, What follows is a Sex Questionaire. It is aimed at Net Women of No shit, Sherlock! >replies will be kept confidential. I also plan on posting a summary so please >no names in your answers. I will take them out if you forget. I will soon be Unless a lot of people contradict me, I think I'd just as soon you directed the summary to alt.sex, or /dev/null. >posting one for the men, just as soon as get enough responses from this one. The last three times I've seen this, the "one for the men" never did get posted. But anyway, you asked, I'll answer. How do you feel about sex on the first date? Isn't the First Date in the Museum of Antique Vegetation? How do you think about, oral sex (giving, receiving) I just, you know, rub my neurons together, and thoughts come out. Do you enjoy your lovers orgasmic juices in your mouth or on other parts of your body? (specify parts and lover's gender) Yes. All. Both. Safety permitting. You do realize that said juices can contain a virus that will kill you, right? When you are having sex, do you ever fake pleasure so not to hurt your lovers ego?(fake orgasms, moaning...) Didn't you know? No woman ever has an orgasm. We're all frigid, and what we really learn in junior high, when the boys go watch a movie while the girls go off and do Something Mysterious, is How to Fake Orgasms. This three-part lesson covers Moaning for Moppets, How Do I Know it's Time, and Don't Tell. These training films were made by Disney on contract for the NIH. How often are you fully satisfied after sex with your lover, if not what are your reactions (tell them, hold it in). Sometimes I hold it in. Most amusing to watch him trying to get loose, but unless someone runs into the room with a bucket of cold water.... Do you masturbate, How often, What do you use (hand, vibrator...)? My favorite masturbation tool is a dildo made from the stuffed penis of a clueless hetboy. Do you like to take control in the bedroom? Nah, Barbara Feldon's cuter. What is your favorite sexual position? #45 Are your fantasies romantic, pure lust, bisexual or from a previous experience...? I'll tell you one. I am flung out of my spacestation, and scooped up, rescued, by a spacefaring sentient tree, which pollinates me. Oooh, baby! Are some of your dreams sexually arousing, and do you or have you reached climax from them? I lived in Michigan for many years. I do not remember whether I have ever dreamed while reaching Climax, but it's possible. Is a good relationship more important than sex, or vice versa. A good relationship is more important than sex, but vice versa is more important than either. Have you had any relationships that were purely sexual and how do you feel about them (you were used,it was great...) I was used. It was great. How important is your lovers sexual performance ? Compared to what? Is penis size important? Long enough to reach your balls? OK. Do you prefer length or width? I prefer Coca-Cola. How important are a partner or potential partner's looks to you? Vital. I won't fuck someone I can't see. How much foreplay do you need to get in the mood? Years.... Do you like sex in weird places, or out in the open? ( beach,car,elevator ) Escalators, definitely. Do you or have you ever practiced exhibitionism or voyerism? I don't NEED to practice. How do you feel about anal sex? Would you ever try it? How to Feel About Anal Sex If you're giving it, lube your gloved hand, and feel about till you have identified the orifice. If you're receiving it, lube your puckering boycunt, and feel about till you find a dick, hand, or other intrudible object. It's really quite simple. Do you practice safe sex, how offten and what do you use? No, I'd be afraid of getting my wabblies caught on the combination-dial, but I've always wanted to fuck a Brinks truck. Do you like to shower before, after, or during sex? Depends... who's getting married or having a baby? Do you enjoy sex in the water? (specify where) Somewhere Down There -- where do YOU enjoy sex? How important is cuddling after sex and for how long? At least six inches long. Why? STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 42932 of alt.sex.bondage From: STella@thelema.uucp Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage Subject: Re: if you could help me, please Date: 19 Apr 1993 14:23:13 -0500 Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Sender: daemon@cs.utexas.edu I'm ccing the newsgroup, because I rather doubt that you're the only one who's ever felt this way. Lisa writes: > we've discussed anal sex >as a possibility and have tried it once. Physically, I'm fine. We use >plenty of lube and playing beforehand to make sure I won't get hurt, but >it doesn't sit well with me in my head. Part of me hates this and is >scared by it for some reason, but other parts of me tell me that I won't >get hurt and everything will be fine, and I do want to please my master by >doing this. Well, what happens in our heads doesn't necessarily make sense to us. But just a wild idea, one that helped me relax enough to enjoy it the first time I really LIKED doing, rather than thinking about, anal sex. What if he lay on his back, with his hardon sticking up, and required you to fuck him? For me, the first few times, being on top physically, so that I could control the speed and angle of penetration, and look at the love who was entering me, was just enough to relax things and get me over that first-time early-time anxiety. Another position that lets you feel a bit more in control is lying on your back, with him lying on his side facing you, sort of crossed, your legs draped over his body -- that way both of you have some freedom of motion, and, even if you don't use it, you can escape, so your sphincter's less likely to WANT to slam shut. But whatever's going on in your head, I suspect it'll fade in a few more experiences, since I remember that being buggered was a lot harder twenty years ago, when my hole would wince shut at the drop of a thought, and it hasn't been that much a problem lately. (Well, once when I had bad gas, and maybe shouldn't have tried.) STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 24200 of soc.bi Newsgroups: soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Cars? Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 10:15:33 GMT Olaf writes: >elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes: >>>>Treasure what you are; otherwise, the body becomes something an >>>>embarassment (as it is to you), a vehicle for your brain that you feel >>>>shame for showing in public. Rather like driving a Yugo. >>>Eh, still some traditional male ego thing there, don't you think? >> No. *THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE OPTION.* The wording of my article >>applied to both men and women. There's nothing in the material you >>quoted that is gender-specific. Either you love who you are, for what >>you are, within the limits of your capacity... or commit suicide. >Ehh? >You give an example of an embarrassing situation. It is related to cars. >Apparently, you give this example because you feel this to be embarrassing. >Cars are traditionally male things, (traditionally, often an extension of >male egos). Huh? I used to believe that it was a male thing, to act like your dick fell off because your car wouldn't go. Then I had a car that, intermittently, would refuse to proceed for no reason I could easily discern -- not out of gas, lots of oil. battery charged, fuel filter unplugged, all those greasy bits doing what they were supposed to do, except for the part where the car moves down the road without being pushed. And there I was, acting like my clit fell off. It's not a male thing, it's a people thing -- one's car becomes an extension of one's body, and when it suffers paralysis, one gets upsat. Acts, in fact, like one's genitalia fell off. Whatever sort of genitalia one happens to have. >To the best of my knowledge, you are male. It is you who is >connected to the car-thing, not the (indeed gender-unspecified) person who >you are replying to. So, because he's got a dick and mentioned cars, this makes cars a guy thing? Um, nope.... I'm sure I don't know what this thread has to do with alt.politics.homosexuality, so I'm going to leave them out of it. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 24286 of soc.bi Newsgroups: soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: interesting talk with a therapist. Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 21:08:46 GMT bdodge08@ursa.calvin.edu (Brian Dodge) writes: > shouldn't the focus of same-sex relationships >be on RELATIONSHIPS, love, caring, understanding, trust. i think if alot >of activists (i.e.- madonna, etc.) took this to heart, maybe we could come to >some kind of concensus. after all, all i want to do is find a person to >share my life with, too. NOT just have sex with (although... *smile*). If I were het, I could slut down with a whole football team, and it would not reflect on other hetfolk. It might reflect, a bit, on me, or it might get me a visit from another football team. If you were het, you could go to Florida for Spring Break, and wave your weenie at girls, splash beer on their tits, and be perceived not as a typical het, but as a drunken asshole. It's not MY problem that the only way I can be "accepted", not subjected to stereotyping, is to act celibate. I don't give much of a fuck whether They "accept" me, and if some idjit wants to assume that because I fuck women that's the ONLY thing I do, well, that says a lot more about the slingers of stereotypes than it does about what I actually do. If, to win some degree of acceptance, I have to pretend to be what I am not, a celibate byke, I drop my jeans and piss in the general direction of this acceptance, and of those who think that ANY of us can be defined by who and what we fuck. No thanks, dear, I'm not headed for the respectability closet, and I don't want the kind of faux-tolerance that exists only as long as I don't frighten the horses. It doesn't work here! In my relationships, I do focus on love, trust, caring, and understanding. If, because I also have sex, you cannot see this (and no, Brian, these "you"s are not directed at you personally, but at the people whose "respect" you fear we may lose), you need new glasses rather more than I need new behavior. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 24303 of soc.bi Newsgroups: soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Gay Wristocracy, Bi Invisibility Summary: one in eight Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 06:58:19 GMT In article seamus@ravel.udel.edu (seamus) writes: >BTW, yeah us. I have heard lots of good things about the march. >How was bi invisibility? I hear there was alot. Shit, yeah. I kept looking down at my tits, checking that I was still there in front of the TV. _I_ could see me ok.... The night before the march, I'd gone to what may be my last rite with a group of Real Queers (probably trademarked by the Gang of Twenty (if you don't understand that, don't worry. There's prolly one or two folk who'll know who I'm poking, and that's OK)) I used to think were my family. And walked outside to smoke a cig and vent my spleen when the topic of pre-rite conversation became how icky hets are. Not some hets, which I would agree with, but "hets" (Wjr asserts that most of this was from one woman, but I noted how accepting of her bigotry the other folk there were. Perhaps I should have stayed and confronted her, but I spend so MUCH time in people's faces, and I was SOOO angry, that it just wasn't a good time. I work best on people's prejudices when I am not gut-wrenching pissed. So instead of standing and fighting, I said to wjr, loud enough that one MIGHT have caught it, "enough heterophobia, I'm going outside", and walked.) Yeah, I AM developing a degree of monophobia, I suspect, and it freaks me that it's the queer monos that really bug me -- I think because I idealistically fantasize that folk who have been shat on for their orientation would be less hostile than the hets, and finding this untrue really gravels. But that put me in a MOOD, alienated from queers I once liked and trusted (I later talked to the gal who organized this rite, and told her that, while I wasn't slamming any doors, I did think I would be "socially ill" now and then for a time. And that it's only in part so that wjr can experience his gay self without the derailing presence of a wife.), and I got through the rite without too much pain (alas, in one sense, and thank ghod in another), and came home. Woke up early, started watching CSpan, and half an hour later, I was PISSED! Ran to the penny jar, and tried to find out whether my impression was accurate. Every time a speaker refered to "gay and lesbian", I plopped a penny in one pile. Every time it was "gay, lesbian and bisexual" a penny in another pile. (If I'd also counted "transgendered", I would have needed a whole nuther dime, at best.) (And only ONE visible leather-pride pin. Ah, well -- but can you IMAGINE a march of a million BDSMers on parade.... Ahem, wrong newsgroup....) I am pleased to note that we are, at least, one-eighth visible. On average, ONE speaker in eight remembered that there were bisexual people there. And this morning, coupled with the previous night, got me grinding my teeth till I had to take them out (dentures DO have their advantages -- I use mine as a way of catching strong negative moods earlier than they would otherwise come to my awareness). And then, oh, ghoddess be thanked, Lani spoke, and she'd noticed the same damn thing, and put the "gay wristocracy" on notice that we're here, queer, and not willing to collaborate in our invisibility. I laughed till I had to run to the john, and it felt wonderful. I'm NOT the only one, and that feels better than much of the last day or so have done. But I promise, on a stack of pennies, that I will no longer offer the monosexual queers more tolerance for their heterophobia than I give to homophobic hets. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 22839 of soc.bi Newsgroups: soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: So, what's this all about anyway? :) Distribution: usa Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 05:14:00 GMT wattsman@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Wattsman-kyoujuu) writes: >Hello, it's me, but nobody knows me, so I guess I should say something >important so as not to displease the regulars with noise. ;) Actually, you should prattle about baked goods and such. But I'll forgive you. >Basically, I wanna learn, 'what does it mean to be bi' and Whatever someone who calls hirself bi wants to let it mean. > 'how do i know >whether i'm bi' If you find yourself calling yourself bi, that's a pretty good clue right there. And if not, so what? Labels ... sometimes we use labels to keep from seeing obvious things about our behavior. and 'why should i out if i am'... the simple stuff, right? :) Which is kinda the one I hit F about. I mean, I don't know shit about what it would mean for you to be bi; you'll have to tell yourself that, and let us know only if you want us to. And I surely don't know what act, event, incident or insight would cause you to decide "oh, ok, I AM bi", so whether or not's up to you as well. >So maybe I'm not bisexual, and just horny? *blush* Het boys, so they keep telling me, do not get horny at other hetboys. >I guess I'd rate about a 1 or 2 on that Kinsey thing... does only having >sexual thoughts about a man make one bisexual? I did see a guy once or I considered myself bisexual for a fairly long time, really, before ever fisting another woman. You can be a virgin even if you're NOT het. >So, what does it mean to be bi? You get to make that up for YOU. Just like I do. Bi doesn't mean one thing that you gotta be ANSI-standard justlikethat. > Do all bis have this 'pride'? Well, yeah. After you suck your first dick, or fist your first pussy, or fuck your first motos (whichever finishes the bingo on your card), the Official Bisexual Validation Crew stamp your bicard, kiss you on either cheek, pin a medal on you, and give you a shot in the rump. This shot, 4 cc. of bi spirit, injected into your gluteus maximus, runs through your system, and *poof* you're a proud poofter, and you can come sit on the bi fence with the rest of us. NOT. There are people who behave in ways I that I would call bisexual if it were my behavior, and those folk bust a gut acting so suburban-normal that no-one can tell they aren't really het unless they peek through the blinds. You can be a closeted bi, if that's what you choose. Or you can act bi, and call yourself het or gay, if that wanks your crank. You don't gotta march in step to be bi, just drop the idea that there is a gender that's by-definition-right for fucking and one that isn't. > I'm not an >activist, i.e. I have beliefs, yet I try to listen to reason, and I don't Humph. As a wee bit of an SM activist, I sense assumptions packed in there, which I don't really have time to address in detail. You can't BE an effective activist for anything, I don't think, unless you ARE capable of listening as well as communicating what's worth adopting about YOUR beliefs. >force my beliefs on others, no matter how wrong I think they are. Not my >place. I don't see myself as a marcher or protester or organizer... I'm Me neither. But somehow, while I'm lurching through life making some small happiness for myself, I end up organizing now and then, letting out the occasional squawk of protest, and once a year, I'll march for a block or two of pride parade, maybe. >just me, and I wanna toalk to other people who's 'me' includes having >thoughts about both genders. Yep. Because I'm the kind of anarchist libertarian leatherbyke I am, I don't fit well in other people's political struggles. Don't much care, either. >And what about outing? I've been wondering of late why people would want to >publicly out themselves. To one's parents and friends, certainly, to those >one loves...but the public? I don't see why someone would invite the kind >of hatred and scrutiny and violence that homophobes are capable of >inflicting on those who expose themselves so... I guess that's where the Because the constant effort to self-censor, to keep mysterious omnipresent THEM from knowing and therefore fagbashing one is more painful, more oppressive to the soul, than the chance that, once or twice in a life, one might get hospitalized for being queer. So far, I haven't had any serious problem from the 'phobes, and taking them seriously enough to let them control my behavior would give them power over me which the slimy sumbishes have not earned. It takes more than a rumor of threat to control my behavior. Yes, one might get fagbashed. As a woman, I know that one might get raped, too. I don't let that keep me a prisoner of my fears either. Yeah, yeah, yeah, men get raped too, but only the men who have been raped seem to know that.) If bad shit happens, it will hurt and I will suffer. But you're bi ghod going to have to actually bash and actually rape me, the threat is not enough to keep me from being, in public as in private, exactly who I am. Deal, world. >pride thing comes in, right? Still.. I don't really care what a stranger's >sexual preference is, it's none of my business...if it happens behind >closed doors, why make an issue of it? I'm asking these things because >if I *am* bisexual, or if I choose that label for myself, why should I >out? Um, I'm not hanging out behind closed doors, and neither are a whole lot of other people. If you are comfortable keeping your sexuality behind a door labeled "privacy" on one side and "invisibility" on the other, that's your choice, but it's not mine. >Another thing. Gays are born gay. Are bis born bi? Is it a choice to be bi? >Is there a mixture of both in this society?? Because there are folk in this society who believe both that bi is inherent and that it is a matter of choice, there is a mixture in this society. Gays assert, as do hets, that they don't have a choice. I recognize that as a bisexual who does belief that she chose to be bi, I am not qualified to judge their differing opinion. To me, because I choose to be bi, it's all choice. My mom, on the other hand, thanks ghod she was born het, because if she liked eating pussy she'd do it and she hates the stuff. Inherent or emergent? You must choose. >What's 'fluff' and 'tart' mean? :) Isn't that a novel by Pat Califia? Sorry, no help there -- to me, fluff is what you find on the catbed, and a tart is a graham cracker crust with creamcheese and blueberries or kiwi fruit. Or perhaps fudge and ginger. >*smile* Power to you. Maybe I should transfer schools, if the atmosphere >is like that there. Central Midwest ain't exactly the most liberal place >on earth. :P In large measure, we make that atmosphere for ourselves. By wearing bi and pervert symbols in public, I make it impossible for folks to believe that they have never met a bisexual pervert. Therefore, around me, is a zone of space in which the accusation "you eat pussy" has power only to create the response "Yep. So? Don't YOU?" Being out takes power over me away from the phobes and bashers, and puts it right back in my own hands. And that's why I'm out, and obnoxiously so if the occasion warrants. But I gotta go make dinner, or help, so this gets a quick proofread, instead of getting any longer. Good luck in figuring out who you are, and don't worry too much about what the label's got to say. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 25378 of soc.bi Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage,soc.women,soc.motss,soc.bi,alt.support.big-folks From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Sportsianity was "EnLarge, A Celebration of Fat Women." Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Sat, 8 May 93 20:11:07 GMT You know what this thread's starting to remind me of? Alt.pagan or similar groups when some clueless fundoid assumes that if only we knew the gospel of the dead man on a stick we would give up our sinful ways and get with the program.... I mean, we tried, some of us, to celebrate our bodies no matter that they're not the bods we'd see on the cover of Vogue, and what happens? The Peter Nelsons come in preaching that accepting what and who we are is wrong, is ugly, says THINGS about our willpower and self-restraint. Funnymentalists go home! I have so far lost sixty pounds as a result of my determination that when I want a hot fudge sundae I will immediately take myself out and HAVE one. Paradoxical, perhaps, but it's also paradoxical that dieting, every time I've tried it, has increased my weight. KNOWING that I'll pig out again, giving myself permission to sit in a Denny's with an extra pitcher of hot fudge, and goo out, gives me the ability to make food, in general, not an issue, not an obsession, but another area of my life I can deal with. It's easier to get the monkey off your back if you offer him a handjob once in a while. And it's such fun when you walk into a restaurant, and the wait takes your order, and brings you the salad first, and you push it away, and say "The hot-fudge sundae is the entree; this is the dessert. May I please have my entree first?" (One of the waits where I do this often has come to me and asked me "you've been losing weight, haven't you?" "Yep -- you can eat a lot of things that aren't a hot fudge sundae if you don't let yourself have one when it's what you want." (Thank you, Sarah, for the right words -- you put in words what I had felt for a long time.) "Oh." And I saw her, the other day, eating a piece of banana cream pie while the salad waited for her.) The kind of body Peter preaches in favor of, as happens, is not a kind of body I shall ever have in this life. When I spent a summer hitching around the country, eating every other day, maybe, and running an average of a mile and a half, walking three, my weight stabilized. But it stabilized at 180. I was as healthy as I needed to be, could run the stopping distance of a loaded semi before the driver gave up on me, could walk from the freeway to downtown with minimal rest breaks, could climb fences, run from wannabee rapists, and get into the cab of an eighteen-wheeler without a boost, all with a 50 pound pack. What I could NOT do, however, was LOOK THIN. Given that I shall not have the kind of bod, the kind of rawhide thinness, we're told we oughta wanna, I'll learn to love the one I've got, with a belly you can rest your head on while you read to me, with legs that, wrapped around your head, would enable breath-control games, with tits I can carry a pack of cigarettes and a paperback book under, and not drop 'em when I run, with a back you can flog without great care for the spine. This is the body I have, and whether I'm stuck with it or enjoy it, this is the body I will have. By making food an obsession, by structuring much of my life around it, I can, perhaps, stabilize at 180 instead of slowly drifting down from 240. Big fucking deal! At 180, I still had people telling me I was fatnugly (that's one word, in this society -- the beauties of an abundant body are something we're not supposed to notice, and the only people more marginalized around weight issues than fat folk are the people who love them -- can't you do any better than THAT?), I still had people offering unsolicited advice on diet and exercise, and I still had to give them the LOOK, and tell 'em "go away, or I'll SQUISH you". Believe your dogma of sports, your smug certainty that you'll outlive me. But don't imagine that your preaching carries any weight with me, for unless you've waddled a mile in my sandals, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and I laugh, hit "n" and go on. ailsa@wonky.UUCP (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes: >zwicky@erg.sri.com (Elizabeth Zwicky) writes: >> Suppose that you are fat and not very good at sports. Suppose that, in >> fact, you have no depth perception, and almost no hand-eye >> coordination, and you run into walls a lot. Suppose that most of your >> experiences with sports have been completely, totally, abysmal, >> involving being incompetent and having people make fun of you. Suppose >> finally that exercise makes you feel pain-wracked and exhausted in the >> short-term, even when you do it with great regularity and are clearly >> reaping long-term benefits. Suppose, in fact, that you are me. >or me. Or, to a lesser degree, me. I am only now, at 43, slowly learning to fuse the images from my two eyes. They want to point in different directions, and I generally ignore the image from the weaker eye. This is not good for playing ballgames, or anything where I have to judge fast-moving things, especially coming toward my head. >> aggression release either. People who are good at sports tend to >> believe that the rest of could be if we just tried. With >> intense work, I could probably become mediocre at some sports. I was, when I spent five hours a week at it, a bit better than mediocre at horseback riding. I also weighed 190, a mere fifty pounds below present weight. > my second grade teacher once held up a softball >game interminably because she had declared that there would be no >strikeouts, and i OCOULDN'T LEAVE HOME PLATE until i had hit the ball. Shudder, indeed. In a similar situation, fourth grade, I put my face in the way of the ball, took it right between the eyes, and went down in a spray of blood and glasses parts. It was, black eyes, taped frames till we could afford another pair, fuss at the health suite and all, the best solution I could come up with, better than standing there as ball after ball slipped past me, and my classmates snickered, muttered, and complained that they weren't getting their turns at bat. >*shudder* so, i can definitely empathize. if i caould remove one >incident from my childhood, i'd chose that even over having been a child >abuse victim. at least i didn't have to receive that in fromt of all my >peers... Yep. If people had known about the beatings I was taking at home, they would have been sympathetic, at least, and likely intervened. Compulsory sports, however, was a situation in which my teachers, my classmates, my parents, and random passers-by all agreed that if I would only TRY.... I had to get out of that situation, and when the ball hit, and I went down, I went down smiling, because for that day at least, I wasn't going to be subjected to any more of that shit. It's taken me a while to find paths to more activity that aren't poisoned by those early experiences. But in spite of the Peter Nelsons, the phys-ed teachers, the idiots who tell me that if I only tried -- in spite of this, I'm doing it. Ailsa, Elizabeth, I thank you. I've been too angry to post to this thread much, but you've said what I wanted said so many times.... Thanks, loves.... You're beautiful women because of who you are, and it's only a bonus that you have the kind of lush, strokeable bodies that I generally find myself fighting not to grunt wannas at. Squishy tit-hugs! STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 43687 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage,alt.sex.wizards From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Baseball???? Followup-To: alt.sex.wizards Summary: two virgins Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Sat, 1 May 93 08:39:46 GMT writes: >Hey all, first off I must say this is the most entertaining of the >alt.sex newsgroups. All this bondage and tieing up stuff I'd really >like to try someday. I need some advice I guess. This has nothing to >do with bondage really but I imagine the regulars here would be able to >help me out. Well, if it has nothing to do with bondage/sm/mindfuck, this probably isn't the best newsgroup to ask in, so if you don't get replies that seem helpful, you might try alt.sex.wizards. But let me make a few comments, and maybe something will work for you, OK? First off, it isn't how long you last that's important, as I see it, but how happy your partner is when you want to stop. I'd suggest that you might do best to explore with her all manner of non-penetrative games, till she had you have both come a time or three each, because if you save the First Fuck till that's happened, she'll be pretty satisfied, and you'll last like a world series with earthquakes. This would work at LEAST as well as thinking about baseball. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life looking back on your first experience and thinking about errors, base-on balls, and pop flies? I don't think _I_ would. I had an orgasm the first time (oddly enough, because I don't generally come from pene-vag sex nowadays), and no significant pain. Of course, this was, in part, because I did not, as many women do not, have any significant amount of hymen left after a childhood of playing rough and tumble games and an adolescence of horse-back riding. So be aware that there might not be any pain or bleeding and that she just might enjoy herself, and that this means absodamlutely NOTHING about whether or not she was a virgin. And since this is alt.sex.bondage, let me point out that if you're concerned that you might leave her waiting while you try to get ready for the second, um, inning, you might let her be the top, and lie on your back while she, sitting on your wabblies, takes control of the timing of your lovemaking. If you're impatient, this might be deliciously agonizing, as she moves at the pace she prefers, perhaps very slowly up and down, while you want to grab her, roll her over, and nail her to the bed with your dick. If you're afraid that you couldn't BE this patient, even with her on top, you could, I suppose, get some restraints, and make it impossible for you to move, but I'd suggest that that's a far better thing for a second or subsequent contact, unless you mention it to her, and she gets all excited and really LIKES the idea. A word or two about the pain that she MIGHT experience. If she indicates that it hurts, you STOP, you ask her for permission to continue -- in a sexual context, pain that isn't explicitly accepted and welcomed isn't SM, it's abuse. You might introduce her to the idea of a safeword, which is a word either you or she can say that means "let's stop what's happening right now, and talk about what's wrong". If she finds that you're entering her too fast, before her hymen is stretched, and it hurts more than she wants, if she, on top, moves in a way that feels to you like your dick's being ripped right off your lap, whatever might be a small problem, "safeword" gives either of you a way of putting things on hold without necessarily stopping them entirely. And I wouldn't be happy with this post if I didn't point out that I got pregnant on my first time at bat, and my best friend caught something (she wouldn't tell me, and I wasn't able to figure out, except that it wasn't crabs or scabies) her first time, so you do need to talk about birthcontrol, disease control, and similar issues. I, personally, won't do anything that could conceivably result in pregnancy until I know that the other person and I agree what should be done if this should happen, and the only person with whom I presently have unprotected sex or otherwise exchange body fluids is my long-time husband. Please think about these issues, because they can put a real damper on what should be a happy, mutually enjoyable time. I'm setting followups to alt.sex.wizards, because I think that's likely a better place for the topic, and I wish both of you a great deal of joy in your adventure. Have fun!! STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 42028 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Ecstatic Ordeals was Leather and Drugs: Say WHAT Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 17:41:25 GMT elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes: > But something recently has made me wonder what kind of image that >*is*, exactly. Because twice in the past two weeks I've been >approached, once by a classmate, once by a coworker, and asked if I >knew where they could find 'X' (MDMA) or marijuana. Makes sense to me. You're known to push one limit without worrying too much about whether or not the OCA's local yokels, or the law, most likely (would YOU stop playing if consensual SM were illegal?), would approve. It seems reasonable to me to assume that a person who practices one form of ecstatic voyage might conceivably be informed of other routes as well. And in any case, would be unlikely to turn me in.... > Now, I'm confused; why this sudden assumption on my peers' part that >because it's painfully obvious that I'm queer that I would even begin >to know where to find these substances? One reason is that subcultures, in general, tend to be less hostile to other socially-sanctioned quirks than the mainstream. If you're already a faggot, no matter how whitebread you otherwise are, you're gonna be a queer. Since I was a ghoddam drug-sucking hippy anyway, choosing to be bi meant only a tiny opportunity cost. So what's the loss in being a double outcast? People who are/feel marginalized from their society don't find "it's illegal" a very heavy barrier against the opportunity to explore brain biochemistry from the inside. Another is that drugz and other means of reaching ecstatic states all address the same path. Some routes may be more productive, have fewer downsides, but whether you're taking a dose of LSD and daring to think about breaking your marriage or asking someone to cut you with a hot knife, you're pushing your limits of who and what you are. Back a few statutes of limitation ago, I did a fair amount of drugs, almost all hallucinogens, empathogens, and euphoriants. And, the first time I was flogged anywhere NEAR hard enough (Elf!!! likely remembers that party!), one of the clearest insights I had was that that inner state was very like one of my favorite bits of an acid trip, the post-crisis perfect-as-I-am-perfect-where-I-am phase where you and the world are one. I can get there with the right mental set and physical setting, and a dose of an appropriate chemical. Or, I can get there interactively with another person, by way of the whip that connects us. But there is, I do believe, a fair amount of overlap, of analogy if not identity, between the state induced by SM, and the state induced by other groups of initials. (But not the state induced by the initials CIA, oh well....) > You see... I don't. I imagine that many of the people I associate >with might be occassional marijuana users, and I know quite a few of Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe. There are a whole lot more of us than we think, for any value of "us". > The Leather >Community of Seattle seems to be very drug-free. So do many of the circles I play in. But you seem to be such a NICE young man, too, so _normal_. We dance the dance of seeming. Here, and in other spaces. > But, point aside, why would these people think *I* would know? I >tend to be a straight-talking, above-board, sober fellow who just >dresses weird. As I told one of the two people, when he said "Of all >the people I know, you seem to be the one closest to that kind of >person," "We use whips, canes, needles and scalpels on each other for >fun; that's the last thing I want to be doing while stoned!" "Stoned" is not one set of mental states -- not only do various drugz have differing effects, but the effects of a drug on one day, in one mood, can be wildly different from its effect on another day, another mood. One of the ten thousand things that control what kind of scene I do, at what kind of intensity, may well be who's had what. But for me, that's no more an absolute-barrier-not-to-be-crossed than something like but-STella-I-play-a-lot-lighter-than-you. Let me know, and we'll cope. > *Sigh* Too strange; part one of a very strange day indeed. Yeah. Hugs! STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 "I didn't feel any room to say 'no', and hence had no room to be comfortable saying 'yes'." Chris English Article: 25766 of soc.bi Newsgroups: soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: the next phone call Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Wed, 12 May 93 09:36:51 GMT [Note: it's an interesting week. Tonight my husband didn't get killed, but his bike did. I'm going to stop thinking "it can't get worse" because every time I do, IT does. Safeword? Apologies in advance for typos, thinkos. We're both alive. Cool.] In article <1993May12.054031.17519@fuug.fi> an19147@anon.penet.fi writes: >I don't think we're going to resolve relations between the G/L and Bi >communities in one thread, but any advice on the following would be >appreciated. Or one lifetime. But I was born when bi hadn't been invented yet, because faggots hadn't been invented yet. (There is a hystoric connection between gay and bi, but the awareness of the difference came, cultural-hystorical-wise, later than "gay" as a chosen label.) >I have this friend. She came out to me as bi several years ago when >she met her first girlfriend. (I've been out to myself around a year, so for >most of the time covered by this narrative I considered myself supportive >but strayt.) Over months and years as we talked about things she told me =====^^^^^^ "strayt"? How ... monophobic.... >that she considered herself bi, but was hanging out in the Kinsey 6 side of >the closet because the lesbian community didn't handle "bi" very well. True enough. For many subsets of the lesbian communities I've encountered, but not all. And even in the worst case there are usually other closeted bis lurking, hoping not to be detected. >She has become very active in G/L politics, but as recently as a year ago when >she said "... but since I'm a dyke" and I responded with "but I thought you >were bi", she said "Oh, I am but, you know, the community just can't hack it." Ouch. That is, for lots of us, sooooo tempting. Pretending to be monosexual buys gay privilege, which is like hetpriv only with better decorators. But, dammit, I wanna live in a world where the number and kind of beings one chooses to sleep with are only of concern to the beings sleeping together, and being a stealth bisexual myself is counterproductive to that goal. But it's also true that for some of "us" (people who might call themselves, at some time, bisexual), it really truly IS a phase. I mean, you get told you're het, you screw guyz if you're a gurl, and what doesn't happen all of a sudden in one swell foop is that the Queer Fairy comes down the chimney with that (polar bear) Santa and zaps you in the nads and yippeee! you're a dyke. For some folk, "bi" is a label that fits for a while before, and on the way to, "dyke" or "fag". Both stealth bykes and protodykes, however, do encounter some amazing shit in their interactions with some loudly monosexual people. (Yes, I do think biphobes are afraid they might be one. But that's another piece of potential flamebait, maybe later.) >OK. Over the last few months I've started coming out to a very few people. >My SO handled it ok (whew!) and the couple of friends I talked to were >pretty supportive. But so far the sum of people told were all men and I >_really_ wanted to talk to another female about all this. The above-mentioned Understood. Email me a number if you want. I'll call. >And I get my guts shredded. I didn't come out. Before I got a chance to get >there she tells me that she's decided she's not bi, she's a lesbian. She's >adopted the "you must be frequently sleeping with members of both genders" >definition of bisexual and she just "isn't that way" and on and on. I I doubt she meant to hurt you. From what you've said, I suspect she's trying to sell herself on being a stealth byke, closeted even from herself, and so convince herself she's really authentically queer even if she does have to sell a part of her soul to fit in with some of the dykes she knows, but it's also possible that these words that have pissed you off are the best damn words she has for her own understanding of herself. Yeah, I disagree with her -- I was bi when I was a virgin, and I'll likely be bi when I haven't got laid for the last decade, but oh well, she's allowed to pick HER labels, too. Even if they do sound dumb to us. But if she IS unhappy about selling herself on stealth bykehood, it might just give her some support in coming out of the lavender closet if you did call her back up, and tell her how different it is for you. Maybe she's trying to convince herself because she's tired of feeling alone, and hearing from you will be a gift for her. >somehow managed to extricate myself from the conversation, crawled into a >bottle of wine for a few hours and into a general funk for a couple of >weeks. Yeah. Been there. It hurts when you can't communicate with people you love. Or even like. >It's been a month or so. I've progressed from hurt to raging mad to "I have >to address this somehow". I have to call her and say _something_. But I'm >not sure what. I know that a) I have the right to define my own labels and >b) calling up and just screaming probably won't do any good. But the >need to address the situation is eating at me. So, any suggestions?? Yeah, Phoenix. You MUST say something, or feel the friendship's broken. But you're hurt and angry, and maybe you haven't figured out what to say next. But you will. Remembering that she may not agree with you now, but that she has been a friend -- when you can address your hurt, your differing perceptions, AND your friendship, give her another call. Have a bottle of good wine waiting, for celebration or whine-tasting, and let her know your heart. It works. If you work. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 44171 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: Yes, it's a joke. Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Thu, 6 May 93 09:14:17 GMT Nervous, like a thousand cats on amphetamine, yet determined, like a Calvinist in heat; frightened, like the only het tourist in DC, yet wet, like the screen of someone who's just read too many Bulwer-Lyttons in a row while drinking coffee, she considered her action with the shy yet determined demeanor of a nun who's just noticed what the priest has thrust through the delicate lacery of the confessional booth, so like the gloryholes she'd loved so often before her transition, and typed the final clause of her entry, "I don't think being team-topped by Charless Haines, Kayvin Silvon, and Alyx Martelly would be that scarey." STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 44665 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Bylwyr-Littyn was Yes, it's a joke. Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Wed, 12 May 93 10:56:12 GMT haynes@fivenine.apple.com (Charles Haynes) writes: >STella@thelema.uucp (STella) writes: >>Nervous, like a thousand cats on amphetamine, yet determined, like a >>Calvinist in heat; frightened, like the only het tourist in DC, yet >>wet, like the screen of someone who's just read too many >>Bulwer-Lyttons in a row while drinking coffee, she considered her >>action with the shy yet determined demeanor of a nun who's just >>noticed what the priest has thrust through the delicate lacery of the >>confessional booth, so like the gloryholes she'd loved so often before >>her transition, and typed the final clause of her entry, "I don't >>think being team-topped by Charless Haines, Kayvin Silvon, and Alyx >>Martelly would be that scarey." > > Quietly (perforce, with a bright red soft rubber ball between her > teeth) STella stood by unmoving (perforce, tied tightly but not > uncomfortably to the cross) in mounting frustration, knowing that > her provocation, not unnoticed, had not achieved the desired > effect, able to hear, but not see Charles, Kayvan, and Alex > performing their elaborate rituals just outside her reach, > deliberately tormenting her by her exclusion. > >Be careful what you wish for, dear. Carefully, with a wistful hope that her clarification will be graciously accepted, ideally by all three of those delightful, if sometimes inexplicably (riiiiiight...) unspellable, gentlemyn, but at the hoped-for least by SOMEone or more who'd be willing to beat her thoroughly in the semi-immediate future, yet with a certain piquant uppitiness intended, perhaps, as much to reassure the hypothetical reader/judge of the Bulwer-Lytton contest, maker of superlative truffles, to whose judgement I reluctantly defer, that her account has not been cracked by a literate (but overly conciliatory) other who therefore has earned both the truffles and perhaps, when geography permits, a team-topping by Charles Haynes, Kayvan Sylvan, and Alex Martelli, a scene much to be desired, as to incite further threatening and thereby titillating responses, STella points out that since any one of those men can come up with an idea that scares her soggy even when topping through the limiting medium of the net, she finds it difficult, though likely not impossible (especially after a demonstration, of course) to believe that being topped by all three of thym could be more horrifying than any one at his best, due to the inability of the human body, at least my own personal human body, to experience more than total fear. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 96422 of alt.sex Newsgroups: alt.sex From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: Ladies of the Net Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Distribution: usa Date: Wed, 12 May 93 19:24:11 GMT sorlin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steven J Orlin) writes: >mvenaas@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Random) writes: >> That's probably one of the only reasons to marry some guy >> they have to be great in bed, always ready, then you consider >> all of the other stuff. >> If they don't have the first two, they probably aren't >> worth it. >Are you ALL like this tramp? Yep. Every single one of us. We all have dick-sizers in our purses, so when we meet someone at a bar we can measure them even before we pretend to be interested in talking to 'em while we drink our Mai Tais. If the guy doesn't measure up, we'll take the drink and tell him to fuck off. And if he can't stay up all night, we'll give him the Dial-a-Prayer number when we leave. Of course, if he can't lick his eyebrows, we don't even take the drink. Yep, we're all tramps, and NONE of us do guys named Orlin. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 28490 of soc.bi Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: Honey, wanna go to the KKK rally? Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 16:47:57 GMT No, not really, but if I were on that coast, I might go hang out in New Hope that day just so if some idjit Klansboys tried to hassle other queers, they'd find out that cracker queers, even the gurrul ones, bash back. Let 'em march. I'll laugh as they pass. Let 'em rant. I'll laugh as they spout. And if they raise one finger to harm a queer, I'll laugh as I give 'em a cane enema. No matter how stupid someone is, no matter how hateful the ideas, I'll grant 'em the right to speak, because I kinda believe that stupidity is its own punishment and its own counterargument. Of course, I might also build and burn another swastika, line-of-sight to their silly flamin' cross.... (The one time someone burned a cross at me, it seemed to annoy him that I built and torched an appropriate symbol right back the next day. But I thought it was funny, the black fireman who'd been called out to our building two days in a row thought it was hysterical, and I guess I shouldn't expect people stupid enough to hate me because I let a mixed couple share my bed to have enough neurons to spare to demonstrate a sense of humor anyway.) Scum like the Klan thrive on our hate. If we take them seriously enough, they can feel that they are powerful, that they have some influence (lookee how upsat them fags got! Yeeeehaw!). The thing I've found to work best both for me and for discomfiting them is laughter. After all, we can claim at least 10%, and that's ignoring all the invisible bisexuals. We can afford to laugh, but they cannot make headway in the shining teeth of our laughter. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 46739 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Welcome Home, Whoever You Are was Half way out Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 10:58:36 GMT wi.7956@n7kbt.rain.com writes: >I'm a Brit whose been watching alt.sex.bondage for some time, and I Does this Brit have a name, so we can start to know more about you than the arbitrary number 7956? I can manage to remember a few wiznumbers, 121, for example, but a handle, an identifier, something more mnemonic than 5679 (or whatever) would be helpful. But for now, I'll hope you won't mind if I call you "6". Because, among other reasons, there are people who find YOUR preferences, those things you thought you had to keep in the closet, those tastes you thought prevent your having a happy relationship and baby-shattered nights, are, um, 6y. Sexy, even, to some of us. >want to thank the various participants for being here. You've made me >realise that my own sexuality is not so lonely after all. Exactly. Now all you gotta do is figure out how to meet someone of appropriate gender and preferences to share life with you. ("Is that AAAALLLL?" Well, you know....) >I'm one of those people who've always had S&M fantasies - my sexual >person is a sadist. It never occured to me that my male fantasies of >giving pain and pleasure to a women could ever be realised - I never >considered that there would be anyone who'd welcome it. I've tried So what am I, chopped liver? (No, I'm a polyamorous woman with one ocean and two hundred Dennys seperating us. (A "Denny's" is a US restaurant of mediocre quality, nearly omnipresent along freeways.)) Yeah, there are a lot of people who, if they knew about your interest, might be up for playing with you, and perhaps settling down to a life of relative bliss. Many of them, in fact, are women. >vanilla sex in the past, but it has never done much for me (it says a >lot when I admit that the most memorable moment was discovering a >voyeur, a gigantic ginger cat who appeared bemused by what was almost >going on). Well, one of my favorite bedtime stories involves a small tomkitten who assisted me in explaining to a virgin that he could really put more than the first inch in. Cat landed, claws out, on the poor dear's butt, he thrust home, and I cried "Yes, like that!" before I realized that he was screaming, the cat was running, and his butt was bleeding. Sad, really. Especially that I couldn't get out of earshot before I started laughing, and he was all POed. So was the cat. >To be honest, I'd decided that my sexuality was >unpartnerable, and got on with the rest of my life. Ouch. I've given up on sex, for various reasons, a few times myself. (Like after getting dumped by the local radicalesbians for consorting with the enemy and by my then-current male fuck in the same week.) But it ain't necessarily permanent, and I strongly suspect that at least two or three women somewhere in Britland said "Hm, I wonder if I should drop him a note?" Keep posting, let them as well as us start to know who 6 is, and be sure that you are not alone. I have fallen in lust with someone for the simple reason that he hit me hard enough in scene. I'm easy, that way. All you really gotta do to win my heart is be smart, friendly, and able to dish out lots of lovely thud. (Well, maybe that's not enough, but it's a damn fine way of getting my attention so we can figure out whether or not you want to win my heart, and whether or not you have.) >For christ's sake, I'm a vegetarian because I want to avoid causing >excess suffering, and yet I fantasize about doing just that, and now, >thanks to you people, discover there are women who might rather like >it. Excess suffering? If _I_ feel that my "suffering" is becoming excessive, I'm a big growed up type woman person, and I have a fully functional mouth. I'll say "yellow" to encourage you not to get much more severe, or "red" to stop you. (If someone doesn't take my direction in this, and we haven't explicitly negotiated that sie need not, sie'd best kill me before sie frees me, 'cause I'll make sure people know sie's an unsafe playmate.) If I don't tell you to stop, be sure my "suffering" isn't excessive. For me. Might be too much for someone else, might be more than you're comfortable dealing out. (I still don't have a response to the person who recently gave me a perfectly lovely flogging with long slow warmup, ending with my beloved bisonhide flogger, but isn't sure sie feels right about having done that scene. Other than, "thanks, dear, because _I_ really enjoyed that, and I wish you had, too".) I'm a carnivorous woman who "might rather like it". To me, it makes a big difference that, unlike the cow I shall help consume tomorrow at BurgerMunch*, I consent, fully, freely, and with a certain amount of uppity encouragement, to being whacked. I like it, I tell people I like it, I make it clear as I can how to help me like it more, and I am not a cow. I _consent_. Whether explicitly at the time of the scene or, with folk I've known for a while, by long-established understanding, I am there because I want to be, and _want_ you to hit me. Cows don't consent to becoming burger. * a BurgerMunch is when somewhere between three and fifty perverts, some of whom bring vegetarian food from a nearby restaurant, meet at my favorite burger joint (Kirk's Steakburgers, 361 California Avenue, Palo Alto, 6 pm) to talk about everything including bdsm, to plan future scenes and parties, and, now and then, to share a little pain right out there in front of ghod and everybody. Do check us out if you're ever in the area. Any non-holiday Thursday of the summer (this winter, for the rainy season, we may move elsewhere, if I can find a good place). >You've told me that women exist who needs balance mine. Ok, I've got >a further problem - I don't really understand why such women >appreciate pain. Mind you, Stella's article helped. I don't want to >get into a scene without this understanding - before I let go I want >to make sure I *know* the limits. Well, there's limits and limits. "Safe, sane and consensual (rah rah rah)" is a decent place to start. Don't do stuff that would break your bottom's body, don't do things that would make 'em crazy, don't do stuff unless they say it's OK for YOU (not someone else you saw do it to 'em) to do THAT stuff to THEM. Stick with that, as you meet new people, and you'll be less likely to put a foot wrong, and get someone all stressed at you. But I suspect you mean not "Is it OK to hang someone up by hooks through hir flesh and throw darts at hir butt", but "what kinds of things can be enjoyed by someone who likes painplay". Read here for a while, and you'll get far more ideas than my fairly limited (I LIKE thud) tastes. >My next stage is to break out of years of habit of sexual apathy, and >make contacts. Actually, this is driven by emotion more than lust: my >younger brother has just christened his first born, and I'd rather >like to be able to do something similiar, despite the sleepless >nights. But for that, I need a partner, love, a sex life, which means >(for me) S&M. >I have to make contacts. Good luck, dear. I didn't have the Law Lords to contend with when I started BurgerMunches, so I can't really advise, not knowing the legal situation there. But you've made a fine start by letting us know that you are there, you are interested, and if you keep letting us know more about you, perhaps someone on your side of the ocean will say "hey, he sounds 6y". STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian! 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 48688 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: stella@netcom.com (STella) Subject: Re: Mistress, Blow My Mind Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 01:21:55 GMT wi.8087@n7kbt.rain.com writes: >Tell me some stories that will drive me crazy with desire, and I'll describe >in excruciating detail what you've done to me. Torment me. She looks at you, much as she might observe a rat-turd in her Raisin Bran, and smiles softly. She crooks her finger, summoning you, and you crawl, in that peculiar groveling way boys crawl when their balls are chained to the spreader-bar between their ankles, to kneel by her side. She looks at the screen where your words glow in baby-crap orange on black. "I know what to do with the likes of YOU" she says, and you pant eagerly, then wail in dismay as one long, perfect finger stabs out and strokes the "n" key, banishing you back to the virtual invisibility you so richly deserve. >Please DON'T use this service for tests or personals. Send E-MAIL to: What part of "DON'T" do these fools not understand? STella@netcom.com How many slick willies does it take to build a khaki closet? One. 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA, 94087 Article: 32286 of soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp Newsgroups: soc.bi Subject: Re: Monosexuality Date: 4 Aug 1993 07:50:14 -0500 Organization: House of the Apostles of Eris Electric Sender: daemon@cs.utexas.edu charles@bnr.ca (Charles Howard) writes: >cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes: >>>> Does anyone have any suggestions to offer? Could a different term be >>>> coined which would mean "not bisexual" but would not be taken as >>>> offensive by GL-folk? Probably not. >>>'Gay' or 'lesbian' works for me (and 'straight' for the straight >>>folks). Don't you be putting us in the same bucket with those nasty nasty hets! >>You seem to have missed something that I said earlier in my posting: >>using the phrase "gay, lesbian and straight" often makes for very >>awkward sentence construction; hence the desirability of having a >>single word (e.g., "monosexual") which encompases all three. I suppose >>one could acronymise "Straight, Lesbian And Gay" into "SLAG" but that >>hardly has a neutral air about it:-) I do not presently believe it possible that there be a word that "encompasses all three" that will not upset the hets, because it puts them in the same category with "those people", and likewise upset the monqueers because it puts them in the same category with THOSE people. I have come to the belief that it is precisely pointing at the similarities between monqueers and hets that gets both of them undiebunched. A pity, really. But human. >>>One of the offensive parts about 'monosexual' is that it is a >>>term that some people chose to describe other people; no one has yet >>>(that I've seen) chosen it for themselves. Given that context, it's >>>use is highly epithetical. You do not hang in the same circles I do. Amusingly, it's the monosexual hets that have seen the point of the word, and begin to understand that there are, whether monos like it or not, ways in which lesbian, gay, and heterosexual people seem more like than different to some bisexual folk. I know many people who use monosexual to describe themselves, but relatively few of them are lesbian or gay. I no longer wonder why, I just accept, with a sigh, that it is so. STella%thelema.uucp@dec.com STella@netcom.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 32566 of soc.bi From: STella@thelema.uucp Newsgroups: soc.bi Subject: Re: Monosexuality Date: 6 Aug 1993 16:51:25 -0500 Organization: House of the Apostles of Eris Electric Sender: daemon@cs.utexas.edu shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes: >I'm unconvinced that you give a damn whether or not we >find the word offensive. If you did, you'd stop using it. When a group wants to talk about its oppression, and the groups they point as being part of the problem take exception to the words, folks tend to recognize that quibbling about the words is actually an attempt to shut off the discussion, and respond appropriately. >I'm not sure why you find that concept so difficult to >understand. Perhaps because your offense at "monosexual" looks to me like an attempt to shut off our discussion, to define the limits of allowable discourse to your satisfaction? Doesn't work, but you'll likely keep trying. For what it's worth (not much, in Melinda's metric, I'm sure) I regret it when someone finds "monosexual" offensive. I'd far rather they exited reflexive mode and considered the fact that some bisexuals find that word useful for describing a portion of our reality. But I recognize very clearly that the root of this offense, in general, is based in the desire to avoid looking at the ways in which gay, lesbian, and straight folk are similar from our (to be invalidated if possible by "real queers") worldview. Same kind of objection as a lot of whitefolk had to ofay, or white devil, or Mr. Charlie, back a while. STella%thelema.uucp@dec.com STella@netcom.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 49766 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: stella@netcom.com (STella) Subject: No-safeword Means No-safeword Summary: What part of no-safeword do you not understand? Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 11:53:36 GMT kris@agora.rain.com (Kris Asber) writes: >Imagine you are a top in a negotiated no-safeword scenario, and the >bottom turns to you and said, "I know this is no safeword, but I can't >handle this anymore. Safeword." How do you handle it? I may smile, gently, and say "be careful what you ask for, for you just might get it." If you want, from me, a really heavy scene, but with the right to safe out, don't be telling me you want a no-safeword scene, and then whinging that I didn't stop at the drop of a cabbage. Try "I want a really heavy scene", instead. I can do that. I can't say, in the abstract, what I would always do if a bottom tried to safe out of a no-safeword scene, because that response would have to come out of our whole relationship up to that time. But if you ask me, explicitly, for a no-safeword scene, and thereby give your right to withdraw consent away, I may not give it back to you until I have FINISHED. And, if I think you're testing my resolve, or if I think that you can and want to get past the limit you've set, I will honor you with the respect I would demand from a top were I the no-safeword bottom, and ignore your word, and rely, still and always in no-safeword scenes, on my sense of time to stop. (I can also imagine circumstances under which I'd stop on a dime, and never do a no-safeword scene with that bottom again.) Don't ASK for what you don't want, because if you ask and I consent, I will give it to you. And if you ask for a no-safeword scene and back out, I will ask, perhaps explicitly with my mouth as I set you free, and perhaps only with the whip, "what part of no-safeword did you not understand?" And even if I would "honor" a safeword in this context, would the next top? Don't bet your ass. Unless, of course, you are fully prepared to lose that bet. Or that ass. I believe in respecting my bottom, as well as in respecting safewords, and if no-safeword is just another word for "a really heavy scene", that seems to me to degrade both the concept of safewords, and the autonomy of a bottom who must be, by courtesy if nothing else, assumed to be a competent adult negotiator. STella@netcom.com STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA, 94087 Article: 49268 of alt.sex.bondage From: STella@thelema.uucp Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage Subject: Re: Bottoming spontaneously at 14? Date: 3 Aug 1993 10:20:23 -0500 Organization: House of the Apostles of Eris Electric Sender: daemon@cs.utexas.edu Elf writes: >an26865@anon.penet.fi (Smoldre) writes: >> Although there was no negative feedback, one anonymous >>commentator expressed doubt thus (paraphrased): "It stretches >>credulity that a 14.5 year old female declared: 'Please Master, >>make me yours.'" > > I'm not. While I may not have had the words to express myself in >quite that fashion, my journals and diaries record quite expressly that >at 15 (which is not too much older) I was very much interested in both >pain and submission. Agreed. Been thinking lately that somewhere behind the persona I wear on the outside, there is a portion of self for which submission may someday be a doable thing. Because, reading this, I remembered that, a couple years before that age, I started an emotional love affair with Jahweh and his battered child. And "Please, Master, make me yours" was a pretty close description of the sort of feeling I had when I "got saved", and when I, periodically throughout my adolescence, "rededicated myself to the Lard" (sorry, NF!). The "religious development" of the adolescent female, of course, is often an acting-out of the covert sexuality seething under the surface, judging by the way my mailbox typically has exploded when I've referred to this dynamic in the past. During my child/teenhood, I would leave church, go home in a frenzy of lustful guilt, wiggle wabbly all day, then go to evening church and, in an ecstasy of submission, face full of tears, rededicate myself again. I would typically have very hot dreams that night, and perhaps the next, but by Tuesday night, my hand would have backslidden crotchward, giving me the rest of the week to build up a charge for the next Sunday of lust and repentance, of public humiliation and private, intrapsychic submission. > I think even more striking, in my mind, was when I was actively >approached by a 12-year-old girl who said, "Of all the people on >alt.sex, you make the most sense." She then stunned me by telling me >her address; I'd had quite a few conversations with her about my >stories. Then she quoted one of them: "Of all the people I know, >you're the one I'd like to give my virginity to." Ouch. And people wonder why, if I were a man who had been a boy, or if NAMBLA were the NAACLA, I would be a member. Kids don't do anything for me, sensually/sexually, but I do remember being a child who wanted desperately to connect with someone who'd accept and acknowledge my steaming childly sexuality, and being, for reasons that weren't clear to me then, turned down over and over again. By the time I was legal-size, I had gotten, loud and clear, the message that I was not, could not be, a sexually-attractive person. Looking at child-adult sexuality, and seeing ONLY the potential for exploitation, the very real and very grave dangers to the child from being inappropriately hit on, is to see only half the potential for harm to the child, only half the potential pain for the adult who grows from that child. > So I'm not at all surprised. I had the good common sense to tell >her "No." Not because I didn't want to, but because she didn't have >the legal right to give her consent, and that made a *great* deal of >difference in my mind. I agree that you did the right thing, in view of the current legal situation. Whether or not one agrees with the current denial of a child's right to give valid consent, the legal position is quite clear, quite painfully inflexible. But I also find myself hoping that that child (legally speaking) knows, as I did not, that the law, not her unloveableness, is a major cause of her turndown. (When I've been in the uncomfortable position of being approached by a child, I've found it effective, most of the time, to explain the legal issues, and my unfortunate lack of attraction for near-pubescents, and then follow up with some general remarks on how age of consent laws had damaged me, how unfair it is that even if I did find people in hir age-range attractive, I would not be able to act on that attraction without making myself vulnerable to some pretty heavy jailtime, and some personal "testimony" on how well I know that a child of the age I once was can be ready, willing, and legally-unable. On one level, I consider myself fortunate to not have a yen for youngsters, because it means that I can speak freely, without being at risk should someone start surveilling me.) A sig quote I sometimes use is: "I didn't feel any room to say 'no', and hence had no room to be comfortable saying 'yes'." Chris English And in the realm of child-adult love, a simple reversal of this captures my feelings pretty well: I don't feel any room to say "yes, and hence have no room to be comfortable saying "no". But comfort isn't everything, and my discomfort influences the ways I say no, not the fact that I do. STella%thelema.uucp@dec.com STella@netcom.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Article: 54599 of alt.sex.bondage From: fpf@harvee.billerica.ma.us (Fnord Prefect Fnord (the little blue guy)) Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage Organization: gators 'r us Subject: Re: The influence of Fnord on Gilbert and Sullivan Reply-To: fpf@harvee.billerica.ma.us Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:07:16 -0500 STella writes: >How DO you punish someone who LIKES _everything_? > >Except of course, like me, by not being *crazy* about him. > But I know you really are *crazy* about me, and you're just pretending not to be. you're doing this to torture me, and since you know I love being tortured, this *proves* you're *crazy* about me! -- They're all *crazy* about me! --- fpf@harvee.billerica.ma.us Article: 53866 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella) Subject: Re: Fetishists Organization: House of the Apostles of Eris Electric Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 23:33:11 GMT an13439@anon.penet.fi writes: >Hi all. Sorry for the anon post, but our sys admin is a sneaky loathsome type. Am I the only one who thinks that if I were a sneaky loathsome sysadmin, and I wanted to spy on my users who had kinky tastes, I would arrange for any email to or from penet.fi to be shoved into a file for my viewing and sniggering pleasure? Granted, this would violate several laws if done in the US, but hey, so what.... If I'm a loathsome sneaky sysadmin, I might not care.... >I was just wondering if there are any fetishists out there who are into some- >thing other than leather The reason I snickered, above, is that on asb there is an adage we call Ugol's Law. "If anyone asks 'am I the only one who', the answer is always 'NO'." I don't understand the appeal of latex, myself (to me, for historical reasons, it smells like an epidemic, and is somewhat anerotic, something I'd like to get over someday), but I know there are lots of folks who read your words and stared distractedly, hornily, off into space for a moment before hitting the 'n' or writing to you. STella%thelema.uucp@decwrl.dec.com STella@netcom.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Where I am is Here, Where I live is Now. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Article: 54068 of alt.sex.bondage From: fpf@harvee.billerica.ma.us (Fnord Prefect Fnord (the little blue guy)) Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage Organization: gators 'r us Subject: Re: Fetishists Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1993 18:12:30 -0500 STella writes: >The reason I snickered, above, is that on asb there is an adage we >call Ugol's Law. "If anyone asks 'am I the only one who', the answer >is always 'NO'." Am I the only one who is blue, adorable, nonbio, *and* has my own fan club? -- They're all *crazy* about me! --- fpf@harvee.billerica.ma.us Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 04:07:01 CST To: dbd@martha.utcc.utk.edu Subject: Re: STella A little story with a glimpse of RL STella in it... Article: 58020 of alt.sex.bondage Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage From: phaedrus@netcom.com (Phaedrus) Subject: REPOST: Out There (part 4b) Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1993 14:44:07 GMT Phaedrus here again. This being part the third and last about my trip Out There. From which I am not sure that I have returned. (Actually this is the second half (and last) of the third part. Feh. I used to curse people who screwed up multipart posts in this manner. Now I understand. My apologies to all. ) This is about a play party that I was invited to Out There. My first. Ever. Just in case you couldn't tell. All names are used with the express consent of the owners of said names. References to people are vague enough to offer plausible deniability. I hope. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "You gotta get in to get out..." == Genesis Well, it's time. Dunno how I know, but I know. I invite Da'at to watch, and head back to where I know STella is hanging out. So to speak. I have the unmitigated audacity to ask a Gift of STella before I let her take a cat to me. She agrees, and gives me something precious from her heart...and I now feel a little less alone. (Thank you, STella. I shall never forget your Gift.) STella and I negotiate a little, and finally I take off my shirts and my useless wide leather belt and bend over the whipping bookcase. Now, this back room already had 7 or 8 people in it, and STella, bless her mindfucking little heart, picks up a whiteboard marker. "Phaedrus?", she says in a voice loud enough for the rest in the room to hear, "You said that you didn't want any marks on you that wouldn't fade in a day or so...I think that if you scrub hard enough, this marker will come off in a day. At least I hope so." With that, she proceeds to draw a large flower on my naked back with the marker. Heh. Deflowering a virgin. Even I appreciated that, as I was trying to think of who I was going to ask to scrub my back the next day... My head is off laughing when I suddenly feel a gentle kiss from the whip..OH SHIT...I am jerked back into the here-and-now. So it begins. STella asks the host of the party to coach me on my breathing, which he does in a most excellent manner. I am working so hard on my breathing that I'm not paying full attention to the whip. Except...I swear that a tiny analytical section of my head is taking note of her technique for future use. Twas a strange thing...I feel the pain from the whip, but it does not hurt at all. Sometimes my body jolts from the force of impact, and all I feel is the whip and my head pressing into the wall in front of me. I -think- that I am in that mysterious space that people go when they are flogged...until I feel this chunk of recent emotional hurt that I had suppressed start to bubble out from under my heart. _At_that_instant_, when the pain started to break free, my pack-sister takes hold of my hand, and whispers to me, guiding me...I had no idea that she was even close... She helps me to let go as STella continues to whip me, sometimes harder, sometimes softer. My arm and neck muscles tense spastiscally, and I am crying, loudly sobbing out my emotional pain. I think that the hurt from the whip is -nothing- compared to the inside hurt, and I feel a part of my head laugh, wanting to tell STella she's wasting her time now... STella must sense this, because she stops, and gently tells me that it is up to me...stop, or continue. I whisper "stop", and am being held on both sides by my pack-sister and STella. I stand, and raise my fists up, and howl out my exhileration and joy. I hold my friends closely to me, and bask in the warmth of their love and caring.... The rest of the night I spend wandering about, hugging people, and proudly showing off my red back with its marker-flower. I know that red backs are an extremely common sight to all present, but no one laughs or makes fun of me... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- There is so much that I have left out of that night, and of my trip out there. But I will leave my story alone now. I hope that I have reached you, and perhaps touched you in some way. I feel a strong need to share my trip, and so this series of posts... "..oh, I'm wasted and I can't find my way home.." == Blind Faith Feh. It was hard to leave Out There. But I did, of course, and as I get off the plane I wonder how the hell am I going to describe this to my friends at home...and I am different now, too, and so see Home with different eyes. Some thoughts...I think that I understand the difference between sub and bottom now. I bottomed to STella, I did not sub, nor do I wish to. I used to think that a Top did not need to ever bottom. I would like to register a changed opinion on that. Aside from getting a first hand taste of technique (heh), I will have a better idea where my bottom's head has gone off to...I think that I will have less difficulty in pushing, next time. I hope that I did not offend anyone at the party by being unable to hold a coherent conversation. I couldn't sit still long enough to exchange more that 3 or 4 sentences once I'd gotten up out of that chair. People have asked me if I Topped anyone. Umm, no, I didn't. From the moment I walked into the party, I was quite overwhelmed. No way I could coherently Top anyone. I suppose that you could say that I bottomed to the whole party. Now, having said that, STella tells me that I did Top her when I asked for her Gift...I'm still thinking about that, STella. I did not think of it in those terms at the time. The acceptance I felt at that party was incredible. I have never felt so accepted as I am, ever. And the warm caring. And love. Gawd, I still shiver. To all of you that I met: may the goddess smile upon you and bless you. You all were so very kind to welcome me into your safe space. "Carmina Burina" will never sound the same to me again. Phaedrus Champaign-Urbana, Illinois "Welcome home, Phaedrus." == STella